Re: Category One - Tiare Taporo III

Hi Jim,

Like you I also don't wish to enter into a protracted email debate!! And as you say, we will have to agree to disagree, although it seems to me that the area of disagreement is relatively small and restricted to the length of time that a Cat One certificate remains current.

I must also point out (again) that the Cat One process does not and cannot "consider the safety and security of all entering and leaving New Zealand". It can only relate to departing NZ registered vessels and it would be interesting to know the percentage of NZ registered vessels departing as opposed to foreign flagged vessels.

As I said earlier I hope that for all the reasons previously raised some change can be made  to the currency of Cat One certificates.

I am sitting in the Port Moselle marina cafe right now with the rain pouring down - hence a bit of time on my hands to continue this correspondence!! Thank you for your time in answering the points I have raised.  I will look forward to hearing from you in due course once you have held your next meeting to consider the issues raised.

Regards,

Jim Donald

 

From: Jim Lilley <Jim.Lilley@maritimenz.govt.nz>
To: Jim Donald <tiare_taporo@yahoo.co.nz>
Sent: Saturday, 20 August 2011 8:07 PM
Subject: RE: Category One - Tiare Taporo III

Hello Jim

 

Thank you for your two replies; I am quite busy and will answer both now, at the risk of this dialogue becoming a bit vexatious I think we will have to call this a draw and agree to disagree!

 

I am sorry I did not specifically mean that the Cat 1 protects travelers from foreign threats; what I was saying was that Maritime New Zealand works with the New Zealand Customs Service (and Police, MAF, Bio-security etc) in a joint border management type approach (whole of government), according to their relevant statutes, which includes considering the safety and security of all entering and leaving New Zealand. The role of Maritime New Zealand (and Yachting New Zealand) in this particular process is to ensure New Zealand Customs Service that when they clear a yacht to leave our shores, that it has gone through a robust process to ensure both the vessel and the crew are up to the voyage the intend to take. This process results in the issuing of a NZ 12049 certificate which is valid for a month.

 

As I have promised in a previous email, I will raise this again at the next meeting of the MNZ/YNZ Technical Group meeting for discussion. I also said that it was noted at that previous meeting that as yours was the first complaint received around this issue, it was probably a blip on the radar insomuch that you were the victim of an unfortunate set of circumstances that made the bureaucracy appear larger than life.

 

Regardless, there needs to be a system in place, and the system we have in place is that MNZ certificates 12049 are valid for a period of 30 days. I am not aware of anyone having any problem getting a new one if they have not been able to clear New Zealand within the 30 days beyond actually having to ask for one.

 

As you have left New Zealand and do not intend to return, a protracted and circular email debate that will not alter any of this, and as stated above we will simply have to agree to disagree. I will keep your email on record and I will inform you of the outcome of your issue at the next MNZ/YNZ Technical Group meeting (we have two per annum).

 

In the meantime I wish fair winds and calm seas

 

Regards

 

Jim Lilley | Acting Manager Recreation & Small Craft

Maritime New Zealand | Rangiora

T +64 3 3287 946 | M +64 275 387 566 | F +64 3 3289 423 | W www.maritimenz.govt.nz/contact-us

From: Jim Donald [mailto:tiare_taporo@yahoo.co.nz]
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2011 11:15 a.m.
To: Jim Lilley
Subject: Re: Category One - Tiare Taporo III

 

Good morning,

Thank you for your reply.

Ours might have been the only complaint but I have spoken at length to various yacht skippers and they all agree with my point about expiry date. It's also highly probable that most boats would not be in a position to engage in lengthy email correspondence nor would wish to. Perhaps we are unique in that regard!!

I am still totally unable to understand the logic surrounding the arbitrary 30 day period. The first time our Cat One went over the 30 day period there simply had not been (to us) a satisfactory window during that time and reading the reports about current weather in NZ I wouldn't like to be trying to leave now!! (Please ignore these italics - I pressed something and can't work out how to change the font back!! )

I maintain my opinion that having a 30 day expiry could well be in many cases prejudicial to small craft safety and I would hope for the sake of others that you are able to extend this. I cannot see for the life of me how this would undermine the integrity of Cat One. Quite the reverse in fact.

Regards,

Jim Donald

 

From: Jim Lilley <Jim.Lilley@maritimenz.govt.nz>
To: tiare_taporo@yahoo.co.nz
Sent: Saturday, 13 August 2011 1:24 PM
Subject: Category One - Tiare Taporo III

Hello Jim

 

Your email was passed along to me and I would like to apologise for the delay in getting back to you; I have been on leave, then out of town since then.

 

I understand that you find the system in place frustrating; however this is the system in place. That the MNZ Certificate 12409 (commonly called cat 1) expires after one month has been developed over an extended period and involved very wide consultation. I am sorry that you find this inconvenient, but that is the situation.

 

As you have stated, you will be gone from New Zealand so this will not likely impact upon you again, if it does, I suggest that you contact your yacht inspector straight away. If all is in order, you should have no difficulty in obtaining an updated 12409 certificate.

 

I will raise this again (we did rise it on your behalf before), at the next meeting of the MNZ/YNZ Technical Group meeting for discussion. It was noted at that previous meeting that as yours was the first complaint received around this issue, it was probably a blip on the radar insomuch that you were the victim of an unfortunate set of circumstances that made the bureaucracy appear larger than life.

 

I noted your view that you thought that the 30 day validation of the 12049 was another expression of NANNY STATE, but I am sure that you share our desire to ensure all mariners at sea are safe and that all New Zealander's are protected from all foreign threats, and hope that if you do return to New Zealand you have a better experience when you leave again.

 

Kind regards

 

Jim Lilley | Acting Manager Recreation & Small Craft

Maritime New Zealand | Rangiora

T +64 3 3287 946 | M +64 275 387 566 | F +64 3 3289 423 | W www.maritimenz.govt.nz/contact-us

 

From: Jim Donald [mailto:tiare_taporo@yahoo.co.nz]
Sent: Saturday, 6 August 2011 4:44 p.m.
To: General Enquiries
Subject: Fw: Category One - Tiare Taporo III

Good afternoon,

Do you think that I might have the courtesy of a reply sometime in the near future. The original email was sent 5 days ago.

Thanks

Jim Donald

 

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Jim Donald <tiare_taporo@yahoo.co.nz>
To: "enquiries@maritimenz.govt.nz" <enquiries@maritimenz.govt.nz>
Cc: "yachts@customs.govt.nz" <yachts@customs.govt.nz>; "mail@yachtingnz.org.nz" <mail@yachtingnz.org.nz>
Sent: Monday, 1 August 2011 12:37 PM
Subject: Category One - Tiare Taporo III

Good morning,

We have recently completed a passage from the Bay of Islands , NZ to Noumea , New Caledonia and I wish to comment on the process of issuance of our Category One certificate.

Firstly, I wish to state that our yacht inspector, Lester Smith was unfailingly helpful and obliging throughout what became a most trying situation. I cannot emphasise this enough.

Our certificate was issued by Lester at Whangarei on April 22nd. 2011. Approximately 3 weeks later we proceeded to Marsden Cove Marina, Whangarei with the intention of leaving on a weather window we thought we had identified. However, the window evaporated (as they do) and we instead proceeded to the Bay of Islands . In the meantime the original certificate had expired and Lester faxed an extension. We eventually left but my partner developed a medical condition which meant she lost conciousness on board when we were about 80 miles north of the BOI. So we turned back and her condition was diagnosed as an airway blockage into one lung which caused oxygen deprivation. With treatment and medication she is thankfully now fine.

Then, after another extension from Lester we left again hoping to beat a low pressure system which was approaching. However, conditions seemed to be getting worse and so we turned back yet again.

I want to again emphasise that these decisions to turn back were made solely in the interests of the boat and its crew and were most certainly justified on prudent safety grounds. However, we were then back in the BOI with a well expired Cat 1 certificate with all the attendant bureaucratic nonsense that that entailed. At one stage we had 3 different answers from Customs in one day on what they would require for future clearance!! From "just another fax" to a completely new Cat One.

My point is that, while I have no argument with the concept of documented safety standards, I most certainly condemn the nonsensical situation of 30 days currency for Cat One. In our case it most definitely was a contributry factor in making the decision to sail at various times and in that pressured environment it can act in exactly the opposite way from that intended - i.e. to promote safety for small vessels sailing from NZ.

You would be aware that  picking weather windows from NZ's latitude in early winter is fraught at best and the pressure to sail within 30 days is a distraction that is clearly undesirable. I have no hesitation in expressing the opinion that continuing to insist that the 30 day time limit stands is no less than another expression of the NANNY STATE attitude which we are all saddled with these days in all sorts of areas. I hope that you are able to view and consider these comments in an objective manner and amend the Cat One requirements to relieve yacht skippers from this needless distraction when making decisions in the best interests of their boats and crew.

It certainly won't be worrying us because we will not be returning to NZ on the boat and so will be free of these types of nonsensical requirements in future. 

Regards,

Jim Donald

s.v. Tiare Taporo III

c/o Port Moselle Marina ,

Noumea,

New Caledonia

 

 

 

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This email message and any accompanying attachments do not necessarily reflect the views of Maritime New Zealand and may contain information that is confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disseminate, distribute or copy this email message or its attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by email immediately, and erase all copies of this message and attachments.
Thank you.

Address:
Maritime New Zealand, Level 10, Optimation House, 1 Grey Street,
Wellington 6011.

PO Box 27006, Wellington 6041
Tel: 0508 22 55 22 (04 473 0111) Fax: 04 494 1263.
www.maritimenz.govt.nz